Leeds banter 232661


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19 Oct 2021 16:47:35
I'll hold my hands up. I was one who thought we had enough this year to consolidate without spending millions. ( I did say that James was not the answer and would be worse the Costa which I still think will be proven) .
My main concern now though is that problems we have are being made to look worse by Bielsa and his refusal to give the youngsters a proper chance.
The fact we can all name the team Bielsa will play when 90 % of us want the same changes speaks for itself. I will always be grateful for what Bielsa gave us, no one can take that away from him but he is seriously tarnishing his reputation.
Neither Radz, Orta or Bielsa have made enough correct decisions recently and without them realising their mistakes and putting a corrective plan in place then we are in trouble.

Agree0 Disagree0

19 Oct 2021 17:13:58
6 first team starters out, and all of a sudden, the gaffer is “tarnishing his reputation”? . We have enjoyed the best of Bielsa, and the worst of Bielsa, for sure, but I’d still rather have him, than anyone else in the world! We get everyone back and clicking again, and we are sorted.

19 Oct 2021 17:33:39
re Bielsa ' seriously tarnishing his reputation ' agreed ; especially if we go down ( between 5 or 6 teams perhaps)

Has Bielsa been overrated by Leeds fans?
Have some of the players lost faith in Bielsa?
There is a reason he has never remained very long at any club in his career?

Still maintain that without Pablo ( not an Orta or Bielsa signing and possibly underrated/ not appreciated enough by some Leeds fans/ posters )

that even with Bielsa, Leeds would most likely still have been in the Championship under AR, VO and MB.

19 Oct 2021 18:49:03
At least you admit it TJ instead of coming up with endless excuses. Respect.

19 Oct 2021 19:45:09
What’s that Alf because someone’s view matches that of your own that’s kudos, respect is it, if only life were so simple.

What happened to ALAW irrespective of an individuals opinion?

19 Oct 2021 19:50:45
Obsession or pure delusion
We would still be in championship if it we didn't have Pablo
Didnt realise we were a 1 man team that season.

19 Oct 2021 20:32:59
Bright, yes I do think he is tarnishing his reputation, precisely because I don't think he is doing anything to suggest he knows how to cover for those missing first teamers. You or I could pick the team he is picking without difficulty.
If he brought 1, 2 or even 3 of the youngsters in, playing their correct positions I believe it would balance the team better, their energy and will to impress would give us a better chance than the proven underachievers (we know who they are) currently are.
At least that would suggest to me that some thought and inspiration was going into selection.

19 Oct 2021 20:37:53
Baz - one of the main reasons Bielsa hasn’t stayed long at clubs in Europe has been broken promises by the clubs’ boards.

It seems that not happy to make do with having great powers of hindsight, you also revel in speculation and innuendo. Perhaps you should consider trying your hand at a little clickbait journalism.

19 Oct 2021 20:47:01
We weren't a one man team Richie

but Pablo was certainly that vital creative quality and inspriration for the rest of his team mates that got us over the promotion line;

his 9 goals and 12 assists ( contributing to 21 goals) the difference from being Champions or in play offs

believe what you want to believe by all means, nothing is more certain from my perspective how crucial Pablo was.

19 Oct 2021 20:52:23
Apparently the Athletic are tapping me up having read your recommendation Clu.

19 Oct 2021 21:31:36
Baz - as you apparently relied on clickbait sources for you red flags on JKA, you are perhaps not best placed to cast such aspersions at The Athletic.

Incidentally, as I’m still awaiting Alf’s response on who he considers Phil Hay and those at the Square Ball to be clickbait merchants or Board apologists, and who he considers to be genuine sources of info on our Club, it would be interesting to get your views on the matter in the meantime.

19 Oct 2021 22:25:21
Sorry I didn't realise you were awaiting a response. I think I've already made the point that Phil Hay relies on being close to the club for his livlihood and therefore is happy to trot the company line to preserve that friendship and therefore is happy to write flattering stories about the club and not ruffle any feathers. He also never bothered to do any real journalism about Bates of GFH during their reins so a familiar pattern emerging. You can believe the propaganda all you want Clu (many do) but I prefer to take different sources into account and then ask my own questions.

19 Oct 2021 22:56:14
Alf - you still haven’t given your views on the Square Ball and on who (if anyone) amongst the many who comment on Leeds you would see as not an apologist for the Board or clickbait merchant.

19 Oct 2021 23:46:27
Alf - Bielsa is well know for having walked out on Clubs because he didn’t feel he was getting the support he required from the respective Boards. He is also known to take great interest in how he and his methods are portrayed in the media etc, and has been tetchy with the media when feeling unfairly criticised.

You asked previously, how do we know that Bielsa particularly wanted Costa and Rodrigo?, with your implied suggestion being that this might be Club misinformation/ propaganda. Bielsa’s keenness for the two signings has been reported both by Phil Hay and The Square Ball. Are you seriously suggesting that the Club would put out such information to Phil Hay, as an apologist for the Board, and to others in order to protect Uncle Victor from allegations of incompetence in recruitment, and that Bielsa would be happy for the Board to disseminate lies about him in order to deflect criticism from themselves?

20 Oct 2021 07:37:08
Yes 100% Clu. Sounds exactly the kind of line that Orta or Kinnear would trot out as an 'exclusive' to their pet journalists so that they are seen in a good light. Mate, wise up - football clubs are not stupid, they are often experts in media and public relations and Radz made his fortune in media. Do you seriously think what they release to friendly journos doesn't have more spin than a washing machine?

20 Oct 2021 08:01:54
What was the actual source that gave the info that the square ball and PH printed Clu? Not the journos but the source?

20 Oct 2021 09:17:43
Alf - you missed out the second - and essential - point. In your world, Bielsa is apparently happy not only with being given players he didn’t want but also to be blamed for Orta’s mistakes. This is the Bielsa who is known to value support from a Club above everything else, and to walk out if not properly supported. The Bielsa who was so unhappy at the way he was portrayed in the media over Spygate that he arranged that infamous press presentation on the analysis undertaken before matches.

If you’re happy to believe your version of events just to support your internal narrative on Orta and the wider Board, that’s up to you, but I’m surprised that others seem to believe some of the stuff you write on here.

Don’t go telling me to wise up, mate, I’m very aware of how the business world works - and like most Leeds fans am also inherently suspicious of anyone who takes ownership of the Club into their temporary custody. On balance I currently feel the present Board are doing a decent job. Nevertheless, I evaluate any information about the way they are operating to see how it fits with other information about the people involved. There’s not many managers out there who would be happy to be made to look a fool by the Board, and Bielsa is among those least likely to tolerate it. He will know everything that Hay has written in The Athletic about him, and has almost certainly read Hay’s recent book. If there were lies written about him, we would certainly know about it, particularly if those lies had emanated from the Board.

I’m quite well acquainted with the real world, thank you, and it would seem to be you who currently prefers to inhabit an alternative one.

20 Oct 2021 14:04:35
From your reply though Clu it is clear that you think 2 things about Bielsa: 1, that he values winning above all else and 2 that if he isn't winning he will be unhappy. If you do your research on Bielsa outside of Phil Hays book you would understand an alternative point of view that Bielsa sees success as developing individual players and so long as he has players to coach he is happy. So far the board haven't stopped him from doing that and he is happy to take on the challenge of working with poorer players. With that in mind your assumptions turn out to be unfounded. Whether Bielsa stays or goes doesn't hang on the board bringing in quality, it depends on him being allowed to continue with his project in a way that he feels is best. He came to a club not on the understanding that he would get the best players but on the understanding that he would get to develop poorer players and youth players into his system. In short I don't think he demands a certain standard of player (more on personal characteristics and work ethic) so in that way the club haven't failed him nor have they done anything anything upset him enough to make him leave. Those two factors do not make Orta a good DOF just one that is afraid to upset Bielsa.

20 Oct 2021 14:27:38
And Orta shows he is afraid of Bielsa by getting friendly journos to tell lies about him, so as to protect himself? Get real Alf. One of the things Bielsa values about Leeds is the great chemistry between the Club, fans and the wider city, which gets even stronger when the the Club is successful. So when results are not going so well and fans are unhappy about some of the signings - like Costa and Rodrigo - to you honestly believe Bielsa would be happy to take the blame for that - just because he gets the opportunity to improve some players.

Also, do you also honestly believe that all I know about Bielsa is what is written in one book by Phil Hay. You seem to want to come up with some kind of weird construct, with ‘facts’ about individuals which on your own mind is believable, and which you hope others will believe in too.

20 Oct 2021 16:04:45
Spin isn't about lies necessarily Clu, just painting real events in a certain way. For example, the truth that Bielsa only had 2 players to pick from, chose 1 and then wanted to know how quickly they were joining becomes 'Bielsa couldn't wait for them to join and bugged me about it every day'. Not entirely true but not a lie either. Of course the info given to the journo will paint the one providing it in a positive light - that's spin.

20 Oct 2021 18:01:49
Trying to spin your way out of a corner yourself by the sound of it Alf - not that it works.

Whatever way it’s phrased, you’ve previously suggested that Orta (who you now say is afraid of upsetting Bielsa) has fobbed Bielsa off with high priced players he doesn’t actually want, and who plainly don’t fit his system - which would upset any manager - let alone Bielsa. When the apparently inevitable happens (according to you and Baz) and the signings are a failure, Orta gets friendly journos to exonerate him from any blame by suggesting that Bielsa was very keen for those particular signings. Not forgetting, this is the Uncle Victor who continues to be very scared of upsetting the famously combustible Bielsa, who has previously walked out on clubs when he’s felt the Board has lied to him, and is also a stickler for integrity in all things. Spin and buck-passing would be anathema to Bielsa, and the Board knows that.

Yes Alf, you’re right in one respect. Orta and the rest of the Board very definitely do not want to upset Bielsa. And yet, if Orta had operated in the ways you and Baz try to suggest, he would most certainly have upset Bielsa, and he would have known that.

20 Oct 2021 19:03:36
I give up. You only see what you want to see and constantly sin any narrative to suit your pro-orta agenda. Not sure if you are being deliberately obtuse or you actually believe your own nonsense but either way I'm bored of having my words twisted by someone who is never wrong. Whatever.

20 Oct 2021 22:25:31
Alf - I don’t need to twist your words, you get yourself in a twist without any help.

I don’t actually have a pro-Orta agenda, merely trying to provide balance to the anti-Orta agenda being pushed by you and Baz in particular - trying to challenge some of the seemingly lazy assumptions and hindsight based conclusions you so often seem to be making and the ridiculous clickbait based JKA 🚩🚩🚩🚩 from Baz, which were not actually supported by the statically fact etc etc etc. As I’ve said before, more than once, I was very strongly critical of Orta in his first year and beyond, before I started reading into things - no not just by reading Phil Hay articles etc as you will presume, and recognised there were a wider range of factors that needed to be considered to get a full understanding. He’s also done some very good stuff at Leeds - and yes, obviously made some mistakes, but all DoFs make mistakes. Oh, and by the way, your the one that only sees what you want to see, and conveniently ignore the bleeding obvious facts because do not fit your narrative.



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