06 Sep 2021 01:31:15
Baz - just in case you thought I was trying to ignore your red flag comments re JKA, or were feeling smug that you’d made an irrefutable point to demonstrate Orta’s poor judgment in his role as a DoF - I’m sorry to disabuse you, but here goes.
You say that your first red flag re JKA’s previous misdemeanours at RB Leipzig are thoroughly documented in media reports. Do you remember Ed1s excellent piece on Memphis Depay’s time on t’other side of Pennines, and hid well documented ‘bad attitude’ etc while he was there.
That should perhaps have given you pause for thought before taking as gospel what you read in the media. If JKA was so out of shape when he turned up for preseason, he did remarkably well to play the full 90 minutes in a Europa League qualifying game on 27 July, getting one goal and an assist. By the 2 September, he’d played in 8 of the sides 9 fixtures, in Europa League qualification, Bundesliga and Cup, getting 5 goals and 2 assists. He was not in the squad for the next 2 Bundesliga games but came of the bench for the last 13 minutes in the next game, and scored again.
Little there to suggest that he was particularly unfit or not making a contribution to his team. Yes there were undeniably ‘disciplinary’ issues within the season, which would seem to relate to use of a mobile phone, which was apparently barred by Rangnick in the run up to games etc. However, he wasn’t the only player reported as disciplined for this heinous offence - apparently it was all three of the French players in the squad.
Curiously JKA’s first season was not blighted by such issues, and he registered 12 goals and 6 assists - which was a goal involvement for each 112 minutes played - not a bad return. This was under Ralf Hassenhuttl, who left at the end of that season, to be replaced by Rangnick, who himself stayed for just one season.
Curiously, Augustin and another of the bad French lads were reported to have gone over to Miami to undertake two weeks warm weather training ahead of the next preseason to get a head start with their fitness.
Unfortunately for Augustin, he got an ankle injury, which actually set him back for the beginning of the new season.
06 Sep 2021 04:50:49
Clu lol give it up bud there is a reason you are so continually unable to put a ( nonsensical ) positive spin on the JKA/ VO £19 million FINANCIAL DEBACLE ( for that is what it is) is because it quite simply cue MISSION IMPOSSIBLE theme tune a task not even Ethan Hawke could remedy lol .
except perhaps there is only one possible saving grace to this entire sorry incompetent financial loss and mess and that is for GOD WILLING the Court of Arbitration in Sport ( CAS) to overturn the FIFA decision and rule in favour of Leeds United for either no fee to pay or a smaller fee to pay.
also Clu you are completely aware no doubt that whilst you have touched on red flags 1 and 2 you omitted to respond at all to RED FLAGS 3 4 and 5.
06 Sep 2021 07:26:13
There's your grenade, don't rise to it Clu.
06 Sep 2021 08:24:41
Clue, let it go. Get your trunks and hop in to the hot tub. You and Baz are at total opposite on one subject, I think we can all live with that.
Baz, put your trunks back on and sit down in the shallow end for a while whilst JKA does some jet massaging. all part of his fitness regime or so he says.
Personally, I would have loved to see JKA tear it up in a Leeds shirt but if that's not to be then so be it. If he had done well then that would have mostly meant Bamford would have had to be sidelined and that would have been a crying shame considering how far he has progressed since then.
Every dark cloud has a silver lining.
06 Sep 2021 09:55:21
Axe my ole mucka
better still fella invite financial wizard Victor Orta and his RB Leipzig counterpart to your hottub of 'positivity' for the jet massaging : maybe something useful for Leeds can come from it
your accountant must love you Axe lol ; loses you a huge whack of money each year yet knowing there will be no repercussions because you won't give a damn sat in your hot tub : life is good fella.
06 Sep 2021 09:50:55
Baz - 🤪lol - touched on - seems closer to blowing apart supposed Red flag 1. As for omitting to respond to 3-5, did you note the time my comment was posted. I was merely taking a timeout to get some sleep.
Anyway, as I was saying, the lack of problems in his first year under Hasenhuttl, his blistering start to 2018/ 19 and his determination, and that of a supposed fellow French bad-lad to get a head start Iain their fitness work for the season when Nagelsmann took over as manager, with Rangnick returning to his director role, suggests that the supposed fitness and attitude problem should not be accepted as gospel truth. Rather might there have been some kind of personality clash between Rangnick and the three French players. There might be a clue in that Augustin, Mukiele (with whom he went to Miami) and Upamecano were not only French, but of African origin. Things seemed to start going wrong in the September. This happens to be around the time when clubs across the Bundesliga started to take a public stand against racism, including displaying banners on inside their stadiums, a reaction to the increasing rise of right wing movements within the country. However, Leipzig refused to do so, and Rangnick was called out on social media for saying this was because he felt politics and sport should not mix. It did not help his case that the previous summer Rangnick made some very clumsy comments about African players in trying to explain why he blocked a move to Liverpool for Naby Keita, another French speaking player of African origin. Keita did move the following year, but Rangnick’s comments about him and his blocking of anti racism banners at the club possibly soured relations between the manager and the three French lads. Much easier for the Club to blame any issues that arose between them on ‘attitude problems’ on the part of the players concerned. Incidentally, the overall CEO of Red Bull allegedly had questionable views on race.
Rangnick was still at the Club as Director, and it would seem that regardless of Augustin’s attempts to re-boot his career under the new manager, a decision had been made to bring in a new striker on loan, and Augustin was sent on loan with a purchase option to Monaco. Monaco brought him in ostensibly to replace Falcao, but he was still competing with Jovetic, Slimani and Ben Yedder for the CF spot, so it perhaps unsurprising his minutes were limited during his time there.
So, that’s red flags one and two bought into serious question, 🚩🚩🔥. And queries over 🚩3 follow on from the above. Leipzig had already brought in a loan striker to replace Augustin, so didn’t need him there, and Monaco had more than enough CF cover without him. So the two clubs being happy for him to move on doesn’t mean he was a rotten apple that Orta shouldn’t have touched. And, incidentally, if Augustin was clearly a walking attitude and fitness problem, why did that team that almost f@ (£ed up Depay’s career make a well publicised last minute attempt to hijack his loan move to us?
As for 🚩4, he did pass our medical, and Bielsa is on record saying of him ‘He played a few days ago. It’s a player that is well trained. He has good natural physical condition. ’ Doubtless regardless of that Bielsa will have asked him to shed some weight, as he did to all our players when he first joined us, and has done to all players who have joined the Club subsequently, to withstand the unusual rigours of his training and playing style. So no, he wasn’t overly chunky as you suggest, so no, his hamstring pull was not inevitable/ predictable.
Finally, 🚩5. The allegations that he had a fitness/ discipline problem whilst at Leipzig are questionable, as pointed out previously, so the suggestion that there was some pattern to be repeated while at Leeds is, by extension also questionable. Going into lockdown isolation wasn’t easy for any of our players, but that must have been particularly difficult for JKA, so soon after arriving at a new club in a new country, and yet it would seem that he made every effort to undertake the at-home fitness regime which was given to all our players. That his hamstring pull recurred on return to full training at Thorp Arch is not indicative of lack of effort on his part. That Bielsa concluded he couldn’t rely on Augustin not breaking down again is just a physical fact rather than a comment on his attitude. Anyway I have other stuff I need to be getting on with this morning so I hope the above gives you some pause for thought over just how much credence should be given to your so-called 🚩🚩🚩🚩🚩.
06 Sep 2021 11:21:46
no offence Clu writing posts of War and Peace lengths will still NOT change the fact that this is a financial incompetent debacle from VO from start to finish
so VO and MB commit to £19 million transfer fee and then just wash their hands of a player and a very likely potential black hole of £19 million on a dodgy technicality because he suffers a couple of hamstring pulls a young player that according to you is naturally in good physical condition
might also add where is the consistency in this as VO and MB give Forshaw out for 2 years with multiple reincurring injury numerous chances to recover : Llorente out 3 or 4 times in one season
JKA was never the right fit for Leeds and Bielsa end of
axe was right on one thing we are poles apart on this Clu
come on CAS help Leeds United out re the appeal.
06 Sep 2021 11:49:23
Eds, can we have Bermo back please his post took slightly less time to read. Lol.
06 Sep 2021 14:27:08
In the words of frozen let it go, let it go.
06 Sep 2021 14:38:16
Mezz Rather have Oneleeds back. His posts were legendary.
06 Sep 2021 16:20:23
Careful what you wish for George 🤣.
06 Sep 2021 20:13:40
Baz - it’s not a fact if your five red flags are irrefutably correct. The first two are seriously flawed and the third has significant doubt over it. The fourth may be correct as a statement in itself, but your intended meaning, that they didn’t want him because of attitude and training, is very questionable. The fifth also does not hold water if the first three don’t.
Anyway, clearly whether you are prepared to open to logic on matters related to Orta, or prefer to stick unquestioningly to a narrative fed by click bait ‘news articles, and social media trolls, is entirely up to you. I prefer to look at the arguments put by both sides, then look for contextual information, like stats and and contemporary news issues, and decide which argument, if either, holds water.
You may not remember this, but when I first started contributing to this site, I definitely had significant doubts about Orta - fed largely by the transfer business done in his first year here, and my comments very much reflected that. Over time, I read more around the subject and came to realise that matters were not quite as black and white as I had thought and my feelings about his abilities became rather more balanced.
That he thought to bring in Bielsa, and managed to pull it of, put me more on the pro-Orta side, though still open to examining each bit of business to see whether it was good or bad. When the articles you are relying on in relation to JKA attitude problems at Leipzig came to light, I had serious misgivings about the decision to bring him in, even though I had initially been excited by the move, given his apparent potential.
However I was independently minded enough to want to see whether his performance stats etc reflected the alleged concerns, and having found that they didn’t, to examine whether there might have been other issues at play.
I will continue to take a close interest in Orta’s work at the Club, and if any individual piece of business looks to be a clear mistake, without the gift of hindsight, will reflect that in my comments.
06 Sep 2021 22:24:04
clueless contextualise it all you like fella
the bottom line is that Leeds may have to shell out £21 million ( transfer and loan fees ) on a guy JKA that played 40 odd minutes. That isn't money well spent whichever way you dress it up ; if you lost your place of work a large amount of money Clueless more than likely you would be picking up your P45.