05 Sep 2021 09:26:25
Apols, pressed the send button by mistake before I had finished my previous post.
To continue……
JKA passed his medical so was signed. Unfortunately in trying to get up to Bielsa levels of fitness, he pulled a hamstring. As the injury recurred Bielsa did not feel he could rely on JKA’s body not breaking down again with the strains necessarily placed on him to fulfil his role within Bielsaball.
Had Arsenal not recalled Nketiah, it is possible that an opportunity may have arisen to bring JKA in in the summer. With a full pre-season for Rob Price and his team to support his steady progression to Bielsa levels of fitness his hamstring would have been far less likely to go, as he had no history of such problems.
Bottom line is that JKA would have been a good fit for Bielsaball, and he would have put the work in as he was very keen to prove himself, but unfortunately circumstances didn’t work out right. I would therefore contend that, although the outcome of the JKA transfer is a poor one, analysis of what actually happened suggests it shouldn’t be used as evidence against Orta’s abilities as a DoF.
05 Sep 2021 10:44:41
Clueless, good post, mind you the word "contend" smacks of a law degree or time spent as an "accused"
05 Sep 2021 11:40:14
So in conclusion, if the transfer works out its evidence that Orta is a great DoF but if it doesn't you come up with a million excuses to defend why it 'wasn't really his fault'? Do you work for the club's PR department Clu?
05 Sep 2021 11:45:31
Clu you omit to mention some details which many would logically see as red flags to committing to a very expensive risky permanent signing in your persistent determination to defend the Orta ( and Bielsa) JKA debacle.
RED FLAG 1) JKA had previous history of not being in shape as in the 2018/ 19 season JKA returned to Leipzig out of shape and then had a falling out with the coach Ralf Rangnid because of this and his persistent bad attitude of NOT following his instructions ( thoroughly documented in media reports)
RED FLAG 2) In 2019 JKA had a very underwhelming year playing very little, scoring very little with Monaco and Leipzig
RED FLAG 3 ) Both Leipzig and Monaco were no longer wanting JKA
RED FLAG 4) JKA arrived at Leeds chunky and overweight . I have no idea how he passed our fitness tests. He was never going to be able to contend (Mr Hottub lol ) with Bielsaball and so it proved as he predictably got injured trying/ playing.
RED FLAG 5 JKA indeed repeated his previous bad attitude by not adhering to Bielsas demands similar to Rangnids demainds at Leipzig.
For Orta to commit to a £19 million permanent signing given the above red flags was a ridicuous risk as so it proved
sorry the entire saga has been a sorry unnecessary expensive mess and Orta ( and Bielsa if he too sanctioned this deal ) at fault Clu.
05 Sep 2021 13:33:09
Alf - in respect of JKA - all the info provided has been taken from published material by Phil Hay or equivalent reputable journos. Not ‘a million excuses somehow concocted just for the sake of challenging your anti-Orta narrative.
05 Sep 2021 14:18:03
I wasn't referring to just the JKA transfer though Cku, you consistently defend all of the poor signings below even the deplorable Buoy signing.
05 Sep 2021 17:49:31
Orta’s responsibilities as DoF are not just transfers. Bielsa was not a transfer, he was recruited over a lengthy period of time, and bought into VO’s vision for the future of Leeds United. Additionally, it was he who was responsible for getting the investment from Radz to totally transform Thorpe Arch based on the coach’s requests, which was no minor investment. Yes, there have been some poor signings on a tight budget, but he has contributed hugely to our progression to where we are today.
05 Sep 2021 20:31:16
Alf - I know you weren’t just referring to JKA. I have not attempted to defend any signing, merely pointing out that there are factors should be considered to get a fuller picture before making your own judgement. In the cases of Bouy and Ideguchi, they were immediately farmed out to Cultural Leonese, a club owned by Aspire Academy, which is run by Ivan Bravo, who was brought onto the Leeds Board by Radrizzani, one of a number of mistakes made by our owner when he first took control. Bravo convinced Radz that the link with Aspire could be mutually beneficial, with Leeds having access to promising young players from around the world who came to that Academy based in Qatar. In practice, no players came to Leeds from there, and instead two of the players we bought went to Cultural, only to rot on their bench, and Bravo tried to poach Corberan for another of the clubs he is involved in. Aspire had also engaged in the development of football in Myanmar, which may explain the controversial and embarrassing tour to that country.
Thankfully Radz woke up to reality when Bravo made a move for Corberan, and Bravo left the Club shortly afterwards. Unfortunately that still left Bouy and Ideguchi as collateral damage from the tie-up with Aspire. Who knows whether we would have bought them if Bravo hadn’t been on our Board, either way, it can have helped their development, or indeed their attitude to our Club having believed they were to join a historic English club in it’s push for promotion to the Prem, with the possibility that they themselves might fulfil many player’s dream of actually playing in that league themselves, only to be put on the next plane to sit on the bench of some two-bit Spanish club, run by a Qatari academy. By all accounts Ideguchi hates our club, and I can’t blame him. He was a rising star within his national side and rotting in Spain cost him his place at the World Cup. Bouy probably felt the same about us and quite possibly decided the best way to respond was effectively to go on strike and run down his contract.
Just to reiterate, Bravo’s involvement was entirely instigated by Radrizzani, as they already knew each other well. Orta, being an employee of the Club, would presumably have felt duty bound to help facilitate the links between Leeds and Aspire, so helping the latter organisation, in the initial belief that this would be reciprocated and therefore beneficial to the Club.
05 Sep 2021 22:42:02
Surely of Buoy or Ideguchi were any good they would have made the team, not the bench. This is what I mean about blaming everything else but the person who found the players and bought them. I suppose Casilla didn't work out because the wind was in the wrong direction or something and he would have been error free had the wind in Leeds blown from tge west instead of the east, or something.
05 Sep 2021 23:23:49
Tbf Ideguchi was a young lad, a million miles from home, never settled and was home sick and depressed. It wasn’t right what happened, but he shouldn’t have signed. I really felt for the lad.
06 Sep 2021 00:14:02
Alf - are you being deliberately obtuse. Ideguchi was a rising star in the Japanese national team. He left Japan ostensibly to come to England, which would have taken some adjustment, but doubtless expected to be supported by the Club to settle in his new team and new country, perhaps he already had a little English, but presumably he expected to be helped with the language etc But no, straight onto a flight to Spain to some poor quality side, with goodness knows what support to settle in - I’m pretty sure he would not have any knowledge of Spanish. Is it any wonder that the poor lad didn’t thrive in that situation?
As for Bouy, he was a promising Dutch player in the Ajax academy, capped at youth level up to U18, who got onto the books of Mino Raiola, who saw a chance of making some money for himself by getting him a big money move to Juventus, who sent him out on loan, he did well, and was capped at u19 level during that year. Four more loan moves followed, with his performances tailing off as various managers tried him in a range of positions to fit their teams needs. He started off as a promising CAM, and ended up playing almost everywhere but CAM, including CB!
Unsurprisingly all these loan moves and positional changes did nothing to improve his chances of getting into the first team at Juve. Doubtless he was delighted to get a move to Leeds, presumably thinking he would get a chance to put down some roots and establish himself in the first team. But no - straight on the plane to Spain, one of the few countries he’d not been loaned into previously. He was brought back to Leeds in the January and, according to Christensen, turned down the opportunity to go out on loan - being determined to earn a place in the first team at Leeds - and who can blame him for that.
Obviously Christensen was out of the door shortly afterwards, and Heckingbottom was never going to give Bouy a chance, given the player’s lack of previous experience in the Championship. Clearly Bouy had the versatility to potentially help in the Championship the following season, but Bielsa had insufficient evidence of his abilities due to lack of recent playing time so clearly could not be confident he could be relied upon in comparison to the other squad members - hence he did not make the cut - and the rest is history.
Had Ideguchi and Bouy been kept at Leeds rather than been used in one of Ivan Bravo’s pet projects, things could have worked out very differently. Both had every reason to knuckle down to make their move here a success - Ideguchi was keen to remain in the Japan squad for the World Cup, and Bouy was desperate to become an established and valued first teamer.