04 Sep 2021 09:38:41
The debate below has reminded me just how many flops Victor Orta has signed :
JKA, Lauren de Bock, Kiko Casilla, Ian Poveda, Helder Costa, Tyler Roberts etc
The jury is still out on Rodrigo, Firpo, even Robin Koch and because of his injuries Forshaw
The undoubted successes have been Bamford, Meslier, Raphinia and if he can stay injury free from now on Llorente because he is quality
But overall Orta has been very disappointing in the amount of money he has wasted.
The Leeds recruitment process needs to be Bielsa selecting a list of players he wants that fit not Orta doing it.
Also think for Leeds to progress further Leeds need a more successful Director of Football to replace Orta.
04 Sep 2021 10:02:11
Baz
A tad harsh on Robert's and Casillia imo, yes Robert's dosent get me excited when I see him warming up, but is there a player in there, Bielsa must think so.
Casilla IMO was ok until the Derby debacle, which in the long run may have done us a favour and then lost all confidence, but I appreciate your opinion and see were your coming from.
Even Ferguson signed a few flops.
04 Sep 2021 10:54:08
You sound like berm Baz.
04 Sep 2021 10:57:10
Every manager signs his fair share of flops. There is quite a long list for Fergie. It is always a gamble signing any player. None of them comes with a guarantee and just because they were good with one team does not make it certain they will blossom with yours. The size of the gamble is in direct relation to the size of the fee. Maybe the easier route is to sign "ones for the future".
04 Sep 2021 11:00:04
Baz, and others making the same point. If Bielsa wanted to spend loads of time coming up with a list for Orta, and not have our scouting team look at any other options then that is probably how it would be done, as the Leeds Board have provided what he wants in most other respects. However that approach is clearly not practicable anyway, and doubtless Bielsa recognises that fact.
If we were to operate in that way, and the players Bielsa wanted for a particular position were not available in that transfer window, or we’re signed by another club, we could end up sign no-one, despite the evident need for cover/ upgrade for that position. Doubtless you would then criticise Orta for not bringing someone in. Also, it would get out that we were operating in that way, so selling clubs would inflate their asking prices, knowing that Orta would want to keep Bielsa happy.
As things are, Orta is clear what characteristics Bielsa wants from a player in a particular position and, as happens at other clubs a data matrix, supplemented by scouting reports, is used to identify players which most closely fit his requirements. Given that Bielsa’s demands of all his players are so multifaceted, there will be very few who score highly on all of those requirements, and the very best will obviously be in high demand and therefore command a high price, even if they become available. So it will be a matter of identifying those players who are available at an affordable price and score highly on a significant proportion of Bielsa’s requirements, and clearly there may need to be a decision on possible trade-off between requirements. For example, it may be that Lang scored extremely highly on almost all of the required metrics, but at a low level on one or more of the defensive characteristics, and Bielsa was given the final decision on whether the his high offensive scores etc made it worth the extra effort required to develop him defensively.
Clearly there are some players Bielsa likes, such as Dan James, and some on here would seem to believe this must be from him pouring over a vast database he holds. It is likely that it was Orta’s team that spotted James, amongst others, and having considered the evidence presented to him, and presumably undertaken an eye test of the lad’s performances (though not against us, as he was a unused sub) , Bielsa came to the conclusion that he was a player he really wanted at the Club.
04 Sep 2021 12:01:46
Richie, sorry bud but never rated Kiko pre or post Direby and the stats back it up he had an extremely large percentage of goals conceded to shots in target. Plus he had a Calamity moment in him virtually every game. He was shielded to a certain extent by Leeds being ( one of the ) best teams in the Championship ; imagine the exposure and damage if he had been playing for a less stronger team.
As for Tyler I would love him to prove me wrong but he has had 4 years at Leeds to succeed he has failed, now is the time for him to start succeeding in goals and assists and more effective contributions. I personally would have way preferred 36 year old Leeds United legend abd hero Pablo over Tyler any day of the week : Pablo was 5 times the player in his pomp.
04 Sep 2021 12:05:55
Martyn blooming heck how dare you! lol me sound like Berm?
I need a stiff drink.
the Berm liked Orta, it was Bielsa he berated along with his fave KP whom I love.
04 Sep 2021 12:14:29
Leo fair points re the risks and size of fees.
And Yea Fergie bought some duds but it is feasible to be perfect with recruitment Revie signings were virtually all brilliant spot on.
Clu fair points to a certain extent but when you state ' Orta is clear which characteristics Bieksa wants in a player ' it most definitely was NOT the case with Exhibit 1 JKA and several others too.
Orta has failed too many times.
04 Sep 2021 13:45:46
Not a baseless argument Baz and it is possible to bring a question mark over Orta. However, since it was possibly Orta’s work that brought our saviour Bielsa to Leeds, i'm willing to overlook his flops. Don’t forget he also brought Raph in at an absolute steal.
04 Sep 2021 14:21:09
Baz. Reel it in. Zzzz.
04 Sep 2021 14:34:48
yep OP the Bielsa appoinment was definitely Orta's finest hour which enables him to get away a tad with criticism from some re signings
Aus relaxx I have made my points; enjoy the sunshine.
04 Sep 2021 16:14:30
Baz - Roberts has only had one injury free season with us, so you can hardly say he’s had 4 years to prove himself. Forshaw didn’t have a poor injury record before he joined us, to his injury problems here can’t be blamed on Orta.
Your list of undoubted successes should surely include Klich, Alioski and Struijk, and it’s unfair not to mention the qualified success of Jansson and to a lesser extent Saiz, plus Ben White, who most on here wish we could have signed permanently.
All clubs have flops, and as we were a club in transition/ flux, particularly at the time when Orta was brought in it is certainly unsurprising that some players didn’t work out.
Of the ones you specifically listed, JKA was undoubtedly the biggest flop. But equally he could have been the biggest success if things had gone differently, given the talent he has - having left Mbappe in the shade when they played together in the France U21s. Costa contributed to our promotion, and as said previously, it probably wasn’t realised how paper thin his confidence was. De Bock’s previous record suggested he should be a decent signing, and he came in in January when our form had already started collapsing and Christensen was sacked shortly after. The turmoil he’d come into probably didn’t help and when he got pelters at Derby he must have wondered why he’d come to us from Brugge, and it’s not like being coached by Heckingbottom would have helped him recover some semblance of form. Others have already picked you up on your inclusion of Casilla, who for all his faults, still made a significant contribution to our promotion. Poveda was signed on a free from Citeh, so is likely at least to earn us a small profit on transfer.
There are, of course, others who are generally considered as flops. Wiedwald certainly had a mistake or two in him, but between those he performed pretty well, with a good number of clean sheets and even some MoM performances. Given Christensen’s ridiculous overreaction to one mistake by Klich, it is hard to imagine his attitude towards other players being particularly constructive and helpful in recovery from any errors they had made. Anita had just played a key utility role in Newcastle’s promotion, so it was not total unreasonable to expect him to have a similar impact here. Ekuban could well have worked out but for his two foot injuries, and his performances in Turkey since have earned him a move to Genoa. Ideguchi and Bouy might be worked out better had they not been farmed out immediately to Cultural Leonese where they didn’t get a look in. The decisions on these two may well have had more to do with Ivan Bravo, (who was a director at the time and also a key figure at the Aspire Academy which owned Cultural) than with Orta. I guess Sako and Cibicki were slight punts, but they could have worked out.
It should be remembered that Bielsa likes a very small squad and will not keep in the group any players above the number he wants to work with. The likes of Sako, Cibicki, De Boch, Ideguchi and even Bouy may have been given a chance to prove themselves had a different manager come in, as most prefer to work with a larger group.
04 Sep 2021 16:36:03
I think we could definitely do better with a different head scout or just get rid of the Orta role completely and let Bielsa say who he wants like managers used to do.
04 Sep 2021 17:06:26
Skyler Robot got a player in him somewhere, just keeping him prisoner. WBA still laughing at us!
04 Sep 2021 17:21:55
Alf - as per my earlier comment, what do you do when the player (s) the manager says he wants are not available/ bought by someone else - buy nobody?
Only the clubs involved in Europe or at least regularly challenging for domestic honours would be in a position to think they had a chance of just going out and buying almost anyone their manager wanted.
In addition, in the olden days, which you would seem to hanker after, the market under consideration tended to be smaller, concentrating to a greater degree on domestic players, and there wasn’t such a ridiculous premium on domestic talent. Managers could afford the necessary time to come up with their own lists of preferred players. Now with so many players to consider, and particularly now with the complications of post-Brexit Governing Body Endorsement etc, do you really think Bielsa wants to be doing all the work necessary to come up with lists for the scouting team to work with.
Further, you seem to be forgetting, partly because you seemingly refuse to accept the merit of it, recruitment to the u23s and below. Do you want Bielsa to be watching and or otherwise researching all the u23 and lower league players to top up the locally recruited Academy players with some of the best from other clubs?
Lastly, a number of the players who have come in have referred to Orta taking the time and effort, which has been increased during c.v., to go and see them, and present Bielsa’s vision for them within the squad etc, rather than conduct a Zoom call, as so many other clubs have done. Their appreciation of this effort has helped sway their decision to join us. Bielsa could not have done that himself, and clearly many DoFs elsewhere can’t be bothered to go to such efforts.
04 Sep 2021 17:36:19
Orta is fine by me. That is all.
04 Sep 2021 22:54:02
One of the insights provided in Phil Hay’s new book ‘And it was Beautiful’, is very inconvenient for those wishing to build their anti-Orta narrative.
He reveals that Bielsa was most insistent that we should sign Helder Costa, repeatedly messaging Radrizzani on WhatsApp during summer 2019, asking whether we were any closer to signing him.
04 Sep 2021 23:09:01
Struijk, Klich and Alioski all Orta's I believe as well?
05 Sep 2021 07:51:01
Indeed, and Harrison.