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23 Aug 2019 10:06:52
seen an interesting stat about successful passes into the oppents final 3rd

pablo 70
forshaw 62
klich 61
harrison 46
douglas 45
phillips 44
dallas 40
alisko 14

nno surpise to see pablo and klich near top but shocked to see forshaw so high and KP doing about the same as the full backs.

This is not a kp bashing from me, but i don't find it odd many would favour dropping forwshaw over Kp and many have slated douglas when he is a more effective passer than KP and Kp don't offer much defensivly. also worth noting his numbers are the similar to dallas and douglas who are defenders and have played fewer minutes

when i speak of rose tinted glasses and one of our own syndrome this is what i mean. I am not saying KP ain't a great passer he is very gifted but maybe not as effective as many think but every time he does something good ER get right behind it making him look more effective than he is . ok it was a bit of a KP bashing.

{Ed001's Note - this is nonsense and shows a complete lack of understanding of context. These are just meaningless numbers as presented and should be ignored by everyone.}

Agree3 Disagree0

23 Aug 2019 10:32:31
What a load of guff. I would expect Phillips passing in the final third to be less than most because (spoiler alert! ) he plays as a defensive midfielder. Totally agree with Ed001's comment, absolute nonsense post designed to get a reaction and unfortunately I have bitten.

{Ed001's Note - exactly, there you go, one tiny bit of context changes the whole complexion of those numbers. That is why I hate the way stats are constantly misused on line. Stats analysis is extremely complex and you cannot make a judgement out of one set of numbers on their own - in particular over such a small period. You need to be talking about thousands before you can draw any genuine judgement.}

23 Aug 2019 11:19:24
Casilla didn't make it into the top 8. Quel surprise.

23 Aug 2019 11:50:58
Well Ed and notts this site is all about opinions. Now I have said I ain’t one for stats as like Ed said and rightly so they can be massaged to prove or disprove any point as I have half tounge in cheek done here

Few have mentioned stats so thought I would throw it up.

Notts to your point of kp being a defensive midfielder his stats compare with both full backs who are defenders. Now modern football full backs bomb on but still expect a midfielder to be better no? The fact he is not maybe shows lack of mobility making him ineffective in final 3rd which I have said for years. then again it might be all guff

Still odd many call for Foreshaw whose been playing well and Douglas when they have made more successful passes in danger zone so far this season.

{Ed001's Note - a defensive midfielder is expected to sit deep in the Bielsa system berm. Full-backs are expected to provide all the attacking width. No way you can compare them as full-backs will spend much of the game higher up the pitch than Phillips will venture at all in a match.}

23 Aug 2019 11:53:22
I'm shocked Bielsa wasn't in there either.

23 Aug 2019 12:00:52
I agree Ed this is my point kp is useless defender as many have said on here but a great passer but playing deep is not ideal for him as he will get caught out defensively and can not use his skills to hurt openonets as he plays deep and is slow and lacks mobility

I understand Kante fabinoino rodri Keane veria and even batty are leagues above but my point has been kp don’t have the defensive qualities mobility or speed to play this role

We mention possible midfielder changes and most have said drop forwshaw for me if anyone is dropped it should be kp for shacks who is better in defensive and Mobil enough to get up and down pitch unlike kp

Anyway was just a small stat not showing much but feel it in a very small way shows my bigger comments and thoughts on kp.

{Ed001's Note - his job is not to create chances from a deeper role, his job is to get on the ball and move it into areas that others can create chances from. You are comparing him to players who are not even similar nor have similar roles. Jorginho at Chelsea is the comparable figure. He very rarely gets good stats in anything other than number of passes either.}

23 Aug 2019 12:12:00
BW, your comments show a total lack of understanding as to what a defensive midfielder in Bielsa's system does. The right and left backs are encouraged to push forward as they are protected by the DM staying back and creating 3 at the back. Phillips rarely gets forward as that is his remit.

23 Aug 2019 12:12:04
Berm's irrelevant stat post does however illustrate albeit bizarrely that Mr Dallas is performing well. I like myself a bit of Dallas. He is a frustrated striker.

23 Aug 2019 12:14:05
I'm wi Berms. KP is a g1t with a crap hairdo.

23 Aug 2019 12:16:58
That’s a good point about Jorginho again guess it is football philosophy for me all teams need a ball winner Jorginho is nothing without kante and we miss that type of player so that role in our team does fall on Phillips which is our weak point which again I have always said I don’t mind kp playing but worry without a kante type as tackling and breaking up play does fall on kp and he just can’t do it.

{Ed001's Note - Phillips is there to be in the right position by reading the game and allowing the centre backs to drift out to wide areas and cover the full backs when they raid forward. He is not really there to break up play as such, just to cut down the options for attacking players. He should be blocking passing lanes, not tackling. If a player in his role is making tackles then he is not doing his job right usually. There are exceptions, but usually you don't want them to be getting caught up making challenges as they are then leaving gaps behind them.}

23 Aug 2019 12:38:45
Well kp ain’t doing his job right as he makes a lot tackles hence comments about his red card waiting to happen

Also as notts says he is expected to be part of back three that must have some defensive attributes and expectations?

Also too slow to break up play

Notts it don’t show a lack of understanding it is my opinion I understand the role and don’t think kp has skill set to do it hence call for a batty type player there as cover to fall in back three

George I love how you call my stats irrelevant which they are but then use them to vailidae a point you agree with. Again this is the problem with stats they can be ignored and called irrelevant when you don’t agree like kp but can prove the point you want when you agree like Dallas

Anyway in conclusion to my thoughts kp should be dropped or played further up field with someone who can play the breaking up role better. SHACKS.

{Ed001's Note - the question is, who is not doing their job right? Is it Phillips or is it the rest of the midfield who should be shielding him? It is a team game, if the team are not working properly as a unit, then that is not down to one player.}

23 Aug 2019 12:39:39
Berm Think of KP in the same way the late comedian Charlie Williams (also a Yorkshireman) described himself as a player (he played for Donny as a central defender) . He wasn't a good player but he was very good at stopping those who were!

23 Aug 2019 12:47:34
Sorry Berm I have you out to lunch on this one.
I think KP is over-rated (good championship player at best) but his job in this team is to sit in front of the back 4 (back 2 when we are camped in opposing last third) .
If he was in my team playing the same role I would only ever want him touching the ball in the final third from a set piece situation.
KP has improved immensely and plays the DM role pretty well (still room to improve of course) but he should not have good stats in that third of the field.
Look at the stats in our half of the field and he should be near the top. If not then you may have a point.

23 Aug 2019 12:51:21
George sounds like Jack charlton and batty to me maybe it is a Yorkshire mans trate

Ed as for who is not doing job properly I think it is a team set up with have no ball winner I would say shacks and forwshaw are best at it but that’s an opinion as for kp for me he ain’t doing job right as he has the wrong skill set for role he is like a good plumber being asked wire a house.

{Ed001's Note - I don't get the chance to watch Leeds often enough to really judge to be honest. The few times I got to see you, Phillips had good games. I would love to see more Leeds games as Bielsa is one of my heroes.}

23 Aug 2019 13:03:25
Yes BW, I think we all get your opinion, you don't like KP. Reading the comments on this site you are probably in the minority in that opinion but your insistence to prove your point, in this instance, by presenting stats weaker than England's top order is embarrassing. However, you got some attention and an argument so job done.

23 Aug 2019 13:47:27
Love you too notts.

23 Aug 2019 13:48:34
Notts notice you didn’t answer the questions I asked in this debate rather just shot me down, could you answer my. Questions love to know your thoughts.

23 Aug 2019 14:33:38
BW Questions:

Notts to your point of kp being a defensive midfielder his stats compare with both full backs who are defenders. Now modern football full backs bomb on but still expect a midfielder to be better no?

Answer: No, answered that earlier. Full backs can attack as DM drops into back two to make a back three with centre backs covering wide areas.

Notts it don’t show a lack of understanding it is my opinion I understand the role and don’t think kp has skill set to do it hence call for a batty type player there as cover to fall in back three

Answer: Not really a question but a statement. My response is that I don't agree

Are there any other questions you have asked?

23 Aug 2019 14:39:21
KP is a threat to world peace, the real cause of Global warming and an offence to hairdressers everywhere!

Bermo loves to create a reaction, Never go up with KP, Harrison is crap, Orta ourt, Bielsa should be sacked and replaced with Harry Redcrap, oh yes and after 2 games he’s seen enough to know any hope of promotion is gone!

23 Aug 2019 14:11:22
just think Arsene wengers arsenal once grahams spine went. very good on the ball but often ineffective with weak spine and suspect to set plays. that said this year i think we have been more direct. more effeicent and certainly more robust defensively so. so far so good and that is from me and im glass is half empty and full of spit

Canada I agree my point is do you think Phillips is a good defender? can he tackle? do you think he breaks up play well? does he offer cover and mobility against better teams? and finally is this important in a midfield so far back?

for me it is important and phillips is awful in role. for every pass in our defensive third (which he does very well) there is a time he gets stripped for pace by a non-league gusiley player and when that happens we conceed.

yes he is meant to sit back, yes he is doing his job, yes it is what MB wants but for me and i will never change that player should be a defender first, give me ince, batty, keane any day of the week. It is a bit like Rodgers at lesciter he has defensive players back there and james maddision up top. phillips is more similar to maddison than he is batty

most players can do the five yard sideways passes that phillips does a lot, very few can hit the 60 yards wonderpasses that phillips can do and do so well. but for every wonderpass is a guislesy goal conceeded down to Phillips and then it is a question of phyolisphy is the wonder pass worth the weakness. for some including MB yes. for me no.

23 Aug 2019 15:19:07
Notts my question was with KP being so far back do you think it is unrealistic to ask for a player with better defensive qualities like batty? We both agree he sits futher back than full backs so should we not want a better defender? or do you think KP has great efensive qualities?

for every wonder pass is a few defensive mistakes like the goal against guisley as example. is the wonderpass worth the defensive frailities in your opinion? for me no i rather a batty to win ball protect our goal give it five yards to a player to create like maddision which is what rodgers does at lecsciter

Spanish as for your comments

yes KP you have me bang to rights. with harrision i said I was against re-signing him however I said after pre-season he looked better and I was subject to change, which so far I have I think he is far better and almost a different player

I have never said orta out and always been a big supporter or him. you will never find a post against him

Last year I said all season I don't think we were good enough to go up, sadly I was right. this season I have said the same I don't think we will go up hopefully this year I am wrong but don't think you can slate me for this when last year I called it correctly

as for MB out. yes I think last year as good as he was he cost us promotion and has he learnt from last year. well beradi at cb and weakness in air would suggest not but beating brentford shows signs we might be more relsitiant but overall with the defensive problems and lack of answers I would rather of lost MB for someone like Wilde who for me is a far better manager. you can't ignore defense all season I fear it will catch us out. last year it did this year time will tell.

This is not for reaction it is comment on what I saw last year and how we have moved forward in some areas but backwards in others. think this is fair on a site about leeds.

23 Aug 2019 16:42:29
Wilde is a far better manager? Are you taking the Mick or grabbing headlines?

23 Aug 2019 17:10:43
no cork come on we are leeds but let's not be blind

wilde last year took up a smaller team. with a weaker squad and lesser players. he turned billy sharpe from barn door billy to a top goal scorer. he got the better of us. he has built a style that seems to really work. they look good in defence yet offer something going forward. They are now a prem team and despite spending no money they look decent

in what world is MB a better manager? he finished behind Wilde with a stronger squad better first 11 and bigger club. sorry but I don't see how any one even MB's own mother an argue Mb is better, or certainly did a better job last year

last year who would you rather have cork MB or Widle. for me Wilde every day of the week.

23 Aug 2019 16:53:03
Question: Notts my question was with KP being so far back do you think it is unrealistic to ask for a player with better defensive qualities like batty? We both agree he sits futher back than full backs so should we not want a better defender? or do you think KP has great efensive qualities?

Answer: Not unrealistic to ask for a player with better defensive qualities to play in the DM role, but the role is specialist and is not necessarily suited to a defender as Bielsa prefers to use a midfielder in that role. I seem to remember you suggesting that Berardi could play that role but you were slating him for his passing on Wednesday.

Now you are saying that Shackleton should play that role but I personally feel that he lacks the physicality to play that role and would be more effective in a creative role as he can thread the ball and has pace to beat players. The difference between my opinion and yours regarding Shackleton is that we have seen him play the more forward role in midfield but we have not seen him as a DM. Does not mean he can't do it but we have evidence that he can be effective further forward.

Do I think KP has great defensive qualities, not necessarily but under Bielsa he has adapted and improved his game to be effective both offensively and defensively in this particular role, by offensively I mean the ability to find space, receive a pass and keep the ball moving with good ability to pick a pass from distance. I struggle to see any other player in the current squad filling that particular role, again we have evidence that Forshaw struggled because he tries to dribble past a player and invariably lost the ball in our own third, putting us under pressure.

Team are top of the league and have conceded 2 goals in 4 league games and is due in part to the team defending better as a whole of which KP is part. It is easy to blame KP for every goal we concede but then not offer any praise when we keep a clean sheet. However I believe the team should take praise for clean sheets and collective blame for goals conceded, however I am not trying to labour a personal agenda that I know more than Bielsa. Question answered hopefully but I doubt it.

23 Aug 2019 17:26:40
Quick reply Bermo but it was one season mate. I however do applaud what he achieved.

23 Aug 2019 17:33:54
no notts I think you gave a great answer and debate fully respect that

so it is just a difference in opinions. Yes I would perfer Beradi in DM role over Phillips as he offers cover although I find neither ideal. But i would rather beadri protect us play the ball five yards than have the odd wonder pass that only phillips can do with no defensive cover. that is just a mind set. i would say shacks is the perfect answer. he is a right back so can tackle and cover and defend, he is mobile and can play and pass for me he gets in the team over phillips in the role but again just opinion. again i'm old school I go for batty over phillips MB don't

as for knowing better than MB of course he is a great manager but not perfect and has made many mistakes. many on here called for a bigger sqaud. Mb said no and last year it cost us so in the one sense all the leeds fans did know better than MB but then of course he knows better in many ways. i would say the fact he is willing to play beradi at Cb is a flaw in his judgement and I wouldn't play him there so in that sense i do think i know better and against Derby I was sadly right

team is top. doing well. looking more resliaint and able to win when playing bad which pleases me. we also top this time last year and failed miserably. i hope it won't happen this year but don't think any one can judge until the season is over. what we can do is look at last season and make assumpstions now assumptions are the mother of all F''k up's but my assumptions are the defence will cost us over the course of a whole season. small squad will also factor come jan. time will tell.

23 Aug 2019 17:44:52
true cork but in my business they say you are only as good as your last show so for me Wilde has shown real class and done better than Mb despite having a far weaker hand.

I will also say this about MB what has he done overall to suggest he is better than wilde. his ideas have been lauded, he has many fans such as pep, he has great ideas and teams can play great football but as a manager himself he has not won anything, some would say he is a nearly man who inspired managers who are far greater than him

I am not knocking MB i like him glad he is our manager but i don't think he is amazing and think there are many out there

in recent years warnock with cardiff, wagner with huddesfield, Noriwch manager and wilde with sheff utd have all done what mb didn't with far weaker teams

so I don't think mb is beyound question nor perfect.

23 Aug 2019 17:47:17
I think this is called “de ja poo”. We’ve seen all this sh1t before.

23 Aug 2019 18:02:18
Berm I have said a few times on here that you do not need to be a good tackler to be a good DM. I don't think KP is a great tackler but the best DMs use positioning and patience to break up oppositions play.
The best defensive players in the world occupy the correct position and wait for the attacker to misplace a pass or lose control. If you try and jump in you are going to get beat.
KP has significantly improved his patience but still tries to tackle too much for me.
Watch White to see how often he makes a crunching tackle and how often he is patient. You will see a good defensive player then.

23 Aug 2019 18:38:45
Message to berm, WE get it you don't like, rate, or appreciate Phillips as a player! As a playwright i wish you would try a different subject.

23 Aug 2019 18:46:06
Contradicting again Bermo. You state that Berardi would be better in a DM role as he provides better defensive cover and you identify that the DM drops back to make a back 3, but then you state that Berardi can't play in centre defence (which I actually agree with) . I will never see eye to eye with you because of your contradictions but in the end that doesn't matter, happy to have the debate.

23 Aug 2019 19:11:34
no notts I don't contradict you just take my words out of context or only use half of what I say

yes I don't think beradi can play CB, yes I think our DM drops back in midfield, yes I say I would rather have beradi over KP in Dm role. I did however say neither option is perfect and personally i would sell both from the club and buy better

as a dm the role does double up as CB and for me beradi is a better centre back than phillips therefore a better DM than phillips as for me defending is a important part of defensive mid. no contractiction there is any shape or form beradi can't play cb but is better than phillips at CB and for me i would pick a defnesive midfielder who can tackle over pass, the job would be win ball and give short pass to someone better at passing like batty to gary mac or Kante to whoever Kante is playing with. it is all footballing phloispy

try and read all my words and consider all of my arguements and you will not find any contracdictions. strong opinions yes. bold statements full of them but i always think my opinions through and can argue them well even if you don't agree

again notts happy to have the debate. up next who is better don reive. howard wilkinson or brian clough?

23 Aug 2019 19:49:32
Disagree, you are contradictory.

23 Aug 2019 20:06:12
now i think you are just being rude. where is the contradiction? Think I explained myself quite well there and clearly there is no contradiction.



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